On top of its excellent round choice, the M1A has a reputation for being a highly reliable, accurate rifle popular among 3-Gun, National Match, and other competition shooters. JavaScript is disabled. Add to Cart. NW Arkansas. The SOCOM 16 and SOCOM II are largely identical to the standard M1A, but feature a 16.25-inch (413 mm) barrel, rather than the standard model's 22-inch (560 mm) barrel. I'm wondering if the price will drop because the M1A's could most likely survive any attempt at an "Assault Weapons Ban", or if it will go up for that same reason. However, its only available in the black composite. So if cost is a major factor in your decision-making process, the Scout may be the better option for you. Detachable magazines are more convenient to use, but they can also be lost or damaged more easily. Springfield Armory M1A SOCOM 16 308 Winchester /7.62mm NATO 16.25" Barrel 10 Round Black Fiberglass Stock Semi-Auto Rifle AA9626 . The most iconic battle rifle in American history. The AR-15/M16 has been through many changes over the years and is still in use today by the US military and many other militaries around the world. Sign up for the ARFCOM weekly newsletter and be entered to win a free ARFCOM membership. You aren't comparing apples to apples. The Socom comes with a 20-round magazine as standard, while the Scout only comes with a 12-round magazine. Basically, the M1A is the civilian version of the M14 designed by Springfield for the U.S. military. The specially designed muzzle brake is designed to reduce the increased recoil produced by the shorter barrel. Theres also a composite stocked model, if youre more into the modern look and feel. Proposition 65 became law in November 1986, when California voters approved it by a 63-37 percent margin. The 1911 Ronin combines a legacy of service with the features modern shooters demand. Plus I like the "sleeper" look of the M1A vs a tacticool AR system. The M1A is a semi-auto, whereas the M14 is a fully automatic weapon. The most iconic battle rifle in American history. I would even say it has very acceptable recoil. For a better experience, please enable JavaScript in your browser before proceeding. Since then, its been one of the most popular .308 rifles on the market. Drew of Beyond Seclusion earned both his bachelor of science in nursing and his master of science in nursing from the University of Nebraska Medical Center. It is chambered for the .308 Winchester cartridge, which is also known as the seven-six-two cartridge. Will they handle steel case ammo? The only one left is the Socom. Now I have an m1a loaded. Full Member. You must have JavaScript enabled in your browser to use this website. A tritium-enhanced front sight combined with a ghost ring rear moves the gun fast even in dim light. The M1A Super Match model is an upgraded version of the National Match model. The M1A SOCOM 16 CQB in .308 Win. With Hornady (American Gunner) 155gr BTHPs itll easily shoot to 1.5 MOA, making it, comfortably, a 400-yard rifle. My freezer full of meat can vouch for its accuracy. As far as ballistics, shorter the barrel you go more velocity you lose. For more information go to www.P65Warnings.ca.gov. Premier components for quick-handling, improved accuracy, and performance comparable to custom AR builds costing much more. I carried an m-14 with fiberglass stock in the military. Though it still measures 22-inches, the barrel is a 4-groove medium-weight stainless-steel National Match barrel with a 1:8 right-hand twist. I just wish I could find an early one with USGI parts. I was surprised at the accuracy I was getting using a 3 MOA red dot at 100 yards using TULA ammo. I wanted a light, battle rifle. A 22" AR-10 will outshoot a 22" M1A all day every day.. Can't agree with you on optics either. The SAINT offers upgraded features where they matter most. Jul 14, 2012 9,208 12,759 44 TX. No problems, no malfunctions. It is set up for CQB. Live The Armory Life. Sorry, no products match that criteria. The rail on my Scout Squad is an aftermarket one anyway. Using Hornady TAP FPD in 110 and 155 gr, I avoid the over penetration issue. In both tactical and traditional forms, the SOCOM 16 will answer your call for a compact tactical rifle without sacrificing power. The M14A Rifle can also be outfitted with a number of different optics and scopes to improve its accuracy even further. I do know that I will buy any new Scout Squad that I can find in the $1,300-$1,400 dollar range. It is kind of like a lever gun in that it handles like a sports car, and the iron sights are the best. Accuracy, reliability and power are the three things that make a rifle feel worth holding and using and the U.S. military M14 had all of these qualities. Lightweight and agile rifle solutions that come packed with enhanced components selected for rugged durability. With all of these advantages, its no surprise that the Springfield Armory M1A has experienced more than four decades of continuous production and is still going strong. If there is anything you do not understand, seek advice from someone qualified in safe handling of firearms. Another difference between these two rifles is that the Scout has a collapsible stock, while the M16A does not. Would this allow me to have my cake and eat it, too?. He resides in southeast Nebraska with his lovely wife DeeDee and his two children Adree and Wyatt. I had always been sceptical and figured they really were not that great, as its not like we see a lot of them. These My 18" AR10 clone doesn't have the same range though with comparable ammo. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8bXhfSXxCY8, P365XL vs Glock 19: Battle of the Compact 9mm Pistols, This div height required for enabling the sticky sidebar, 2022 Yestactical.com We are a participant in the Amazon Services LLC Associates Program, an affiliate advertising program designed to provide a means for us to earn fees by linking to Amazon.com and affiliated sites. But thats enough about similarities. As a recreation of the original M14 in a semi-automatic-only format, the M1A has all of the same features that were so valuable to U.S. fighting troops. I have not fired the SOCOM. Springfield Armory Manufacturer of the Year Ballistic Learn more Springfields Scout Squad rifle features a forward-mounted scout-style Picatinny rail. The M1A SOCOM 16 CQB was impressive with the Vortex Venom, even out to 300 yards. The Scout is a more recent addition to the AR-15/M16 family of rifles. Easy rear sight adjustment, two-stage trigger, detachable box magazine, and other components come together to give the historical feel of the original. Ok so in your situation which is the exception, using milspec ammo because the 14 chamber will eat anything, it has a slight advantage. My Springfield M1-A is a pretty good rifle. I have both AR10 rifles and M1As. It's like a 44 magnum snub and an M1 Carbine had a kid together; bad ass! Learn the 3 most popular shooting stances & more. To be honest, you cant go wrong with any model M1A but its nice to know your options, especially if youre looking for specific purpose-driven models like for long-range shooting or competition. The M1A Scout Squad rifle features a rugged rear sight that is easily adjustable for both windage and elevation without tools. Aug 5, 2020 #35 ; If the m1a gets you all wound up . Its barrel is shortened to 18, so its short, handy dimensions will never get in the way of your big plans. Finally, the M1A SOCOM 16 CQB model is an even more tactical take on the M1A SOCOM 16 model. Loaded with features from top to bottom, the XD-S Mod.2 is a slim single stack pistol perfect for concealed carry. And, there is that long sight radius. It is the buyers responsibility to comply with all rules, restrictions and/or laws determined by your city or state. and opinions expressed on this website are those of the authors and do not necessarily reflect the Semi-Automatic Rifles . The definitive source for firearm enthusiasts. NM sights. This is a lightweight aluminum free-float handguard that offers a variety of optic mounting positions scout rifle style, red dot, traditional scope. My only issue with my SOCOM is the wide ass front sight. By requiring that this information be provided, Proposition 65 enables Californians to make informed decisions about their exposures to these chemicals. Eric Perez is a gunsmith, FFL, and Army Infantry veteran with a combat deployment to Afghanistan. The .308 Win. From hunters and military members, to competition shooters and general firearm enthusiasts, we welcome anyone who values and respects the way of the firearm. I will let you guys know how it turns out in a couple months. The forward scout-style Picatinny rail allows the mounting of any standard red dot or holographic optic. You have the choice of a fixed or precision adjustable stock. But the barrel is only available in carbon steel. Proprietary Muzzle Brake The unique muzzle brake on the M1A Scout Squad rifle helps tame 7.62x51mm recoil without adding undue bulk or length. The 18" 1:11" right-hand six-groove carbon steel barrel on the M1A Scout Squad rifle strikes a balance between accuracy and portability. However, the shorter barrel makes the Scout easier to handle in close quarters combat situations. The forward scout-style scope rail optimizes the unparalleled close quarters capabilities of the M1A SOCOM 16. I realized I was not going to be able to accurately assess accuracy (no pun intended) with a 3 MOA red dot; not at real distances, anyway. The M1A Scout Squad rifle combines features like a military aperture 0.0690" rear sight and National Match front blade with stained walnut. Most people I've talked to IRL just say "trust me man, just get the scout" fuck that, I need some reasons before I drop $1700 on my second choice. Despite 2020 being a trainwreck, I've had a pretty good few months at work and am considering a new rifle purchase. Founded by Frank Galli in 2000, Snipers Hide has been offering informational videos, podcasts, and other support to its users in one location. Original M1As were once even made from surplus M14 parts, though Springfield has long since run out. I don't use a suppressor on it. This is where the SOCOM 16 comes in. Live The Armory Life. I had a Scout Squad and its balance was perfect for me. Live The Armory Life. Both rifles have their pros and cons, so it really comes down to what you need the rifle for. Lets face it, its hard to beat a classic. The M14-based M16Achilles heel has always been its accuracy, or lack thereof. Until next time, happy shooting, help educate our young people to gun safety, and be safe. That said, its important to notenot all M1As are the same as there are eight available models: Each designed for different purposes with its own advantages. Ive taken mule deer and antelope with it and all have been one-shot DRT. I own a Socom 16 (in brl) and I'm about to add another M1A to my collection. The lighter weight and shorter length make the Scout Squad model a great choice for longer, more strenuous hunting trips or other backcountry adventures where weight and space are at a premium. It has a 22-inch, 6-groove parkerized carbon steel with a 1:11 right-hand twist. I bought it as new, unfired, and it . Premium American-made bolt action hunting rifles. The official name of Proposition 65 is the Safe Drinking Water and Toxic Enforcement Act of 1986. These chemicals can be in the products that Californians purchase, in their homes or workplaces, or that are released into the environment. Once I got them zeroed, I started ringing the steel at distance. Every model uses AISI 8620 alloy steel receiver (though early models were made from blank surplus M14 receivers) and are able to fit in the same stocks. Fixed stock versions measure 44.33-inches long the same length as the National Match and Standard Issue models. Our Custom 1911 pistolsmiths have over 200 combined years of experience and individually hand fit every major component of your firearm. I won't expect to much precision from the 16" barreled M1A. The M1A feels similar to both the M14 and the M1 Garand. If you live in the desert or the plains, a Scout might make better sense. Any use of this content without express written consent is prohibited. The National Match front sight on the M1A Scout Squad rifle features a 0.062" crisp blade. The barrel on the 6.5 Creedmoor version is a little different. One thought. At 75 yards on a 2 target, I had two shots pull left due to cold hands and operator error, but the third was dead center. It doesn't haul the most cargo or passengers, either. The M14 rifle was originally designed to be used with iron sights. you a link to reset your password. I've heard more about their lack of accuracy than being accurate, but people have different standards as to what accurate is. Battle Proven. The final difference between these two rifles is that the Scout uses detachable magazines, while the M16A uses internal magazines. Here's a quick price breakdown. And, women, by-in-large, don't like to drive it. The M14 rifle, officially the United States Rifle, Caliber .308 Winchester, is an American selective fire automatic rifle that fires seven rounds in a magazine. guns & If the m1a gets you all wound up inside, maybe its the right gun for you. Chambers may vary slightly, and yes, the pressures are slightly different as well as case thickness, but externally the cases are the same. The SAINT offers upgraded features where they matter most. Prepare for .308 Win they pretty much all come chambered for that cartridge. Unlock the Benefits of Knowing Your Winchester Serial Number, Complete Buyers Guide to the Sig Sauer P228. From my own meager personal experience, I can shoot my 20" HBAR AR15 with a bit more consistent accuracy than I can my M1A NM out to about 600 under the right conditions. Now that you know about a few of my favorite models of the Springfield Armory M1A, lets briefly touch on the other models. And that is the problem several of these directly conflict with each other, such as power versus light recoil and light weight versus accuracy. It's made by Ultimak. Springfield also upgraded the sights, offering a .125-inch post front sight with a tritium insert and a .135-inch ghost ring aperture rear sight with MOA adjustment for both windage and elevation. Weight is a small consideration, even for my 70-year-old legs and the Wyoming prairie land. Sporting a short 16.25 barrel and shortened gas system, the SOCOM 16 features a forward mounted scout mount rail for an optic. Exceptional rifles at exceptional prices. Whereas the Scout has standard sights that are good for any distance you might shoot irons and uses a standard GI piston system. I absolutely love this rifle. I have a Scout-Squad with a UTG 2-7x44 Accushot Scout in a Bobro SCAR mount. It was designed as a shorter and lighter version of the M16A for use by troops in combat situations where a longer and heavier rifle would be impractical or too difficult to carry. Muzzle velocity for this test was a zippy 2969 fps., or 104 percent of list velocity. But, as you start to go beyond 600, that M1A starts to play "catch-up" in the accuracy department. I prefer the classic appearance of the walnutbut the composite stocks work just as well. For anyone wondering, if you don't like the sights on the SOCOM16, you can order a set of scout sights from Springfield for cheap ($70 or so I think) and they fit right on. You'll now receive newsletters of our best articles on techniques, ; the gun is sturdy, durable, and will hold up to just about anything. Please Wait. All rights reserved. This is definitely one of the reasons. Let us know in the comments below. So, if you take the optics off of them and put A2 sights on them, they can't even touch the M1A for accuracy. Rating: 98%. But I thought the M14 was the standard service rifle until 1969, when officially replaced by the M16. So if youre looking for a longer-ranged option, the Socom is the better choice. The Standard Issue M1A is a faithful semi-auto recreation of the original M14. The National Match model also has a National Match trigger group with a 4.5-pound two-stage trigger. Thanks to all for the great info, is one more reliable than the other? Is that about it? But, if your one of those that carries around a set of calipers to measure group size, even when not carrying a rifle, maybe the ar10 is your baby. In 1964, the military began looking for a replacement for the M14. Copyright 1996-2023 AR15.COM LLC. Makes you feel all warm and fuzzy? When you look for an M1A scout scope, there are not a lot of options available. You wouldn't get much practical accuracy out of that rifle. The M14 was used extensively in the Vietnam War by the US military. They also have the same operating rod and rotating bolt. Regular Price Special Price. If you keep a loaded firearm where a child obtains and improperly uses it, you may be fined or sent to prison. By requiring that this information be provided, Proposition 65 enables Californians to make informed decisions about their exposures to these chemicals. Developed in conjunction with retired U.S. Army 1st SFOD Delta combat veteran Larry Vickers. and opinions expressed on this website are those of the authors and do not necessarily reflect the I may earn a small part of the sale from links to any products or services on this site. Overall Length: 37.25 in. So, with these things in mind, does anyone still think the scout is better, and if so why specifically? The latest content straight to your inbox plus an automatic entry to each of our monthly gungiveaways! Based on one of the most prolific and popular pistols in small arms history. I can think of a couple of circumstances but non involve long range shooting. Why is Applied Ballistics Dominating Hornady DOF..? Historic firearm lovers as well as former servicemen who carried either of those two rifles will dig the familiarity. The Emissary bridges the best features of defensive and custom pistols. 18" barrel is the shortest I will go with an M1A. The XD set the new industry standard for comfort, ease of operation, features and performance. Topping off some features, the rifle has a National Match .062-inch blade front sight and a military aperture .0690-inch rear sight with half-minute adjustment for both windage and elevation. The Scout, on the other hand, has an even shorter barrel and an effective range of only 300 yards. As already posted, you could always swap the sights, but I kept the Scout, and have since changed out the muzzle device for (I think) an SEI? Its a nominal 1-1.5 MOA if I do my part.. Location. However, the Scout model of the M14A rifle takes things one step further. I prefer the scout. You know that M1A is not a reg Scout. That'll cover the cost of the Boyds stock and handguard, and still have some left over for mags and ammo. Im leaning toward the Scout because I like the traditional wood stock. 18.5 medium Krieger. It really comes down to what is acceptable for your needs. But if you live in California, you can opt for a CA-approved version with a muzzle brake instead. I have a Scout model which I am happy with, but it's not gonna win any matches. The gas block distance from the handguard looks shorter (angle of the pic? It could be a bit challenging to find your sight picture under 50 yards, but it was perfect beyond that. As far as steel cased ammo goes, I have shot copious amounts of Wolf, Brown Bear, and Silver Bear through mine, also using it in a couple of 3 gun matches so I could shoot "Heavy Metal" class. Elevated features include a rear-lugged receiver and a 22-inch Douglas Premium, stainless steel or carbon steel, air-gauged, custom heavy match barrel with a 1:10-inch twist. The M14 rifle, which the M16A was derived from, was originally designed as a full-auto battle rifle. The XM16E0 would eventually become the M16A and would be adopted by the US military in 1967. Click the Go To Forum Thread link below to jump in and discuss this article and much more! Type your new password and hit button below to confirm it. Much to my surprise, it was really quick and easy to get a good sight picture even at such a forward-mounted distance. This helps combat the increase in felt recoil from the shortened barrel. It also features the Springfield Armory forward scout-style picatinny mount, an enlarged ghost ring aperture rear sight, and XS Sights tritium insert in the front sight to give you lightning fast target acquisition capability. I had the same dilemma years ago and went with the synthetic scout, couldn't be happier. Looks shorter ( angle of the walnutbut the composite stocks work just well... The M14-based M16Achilles heel has always been its accuracy even further 16 features a forward-mounted scout-style Picatinny rail allows mounting. It has very acceptable recoil at 100 yards using TULA ammo a full-auto battle rifle piston system or to. Its not like we see a lot of options available also be lost or damaged easily. Whereas the Scout because i like the traditional wood stock Benefits of Knowing your Winchester Serial number Complete... The M14A rifle can also be outfitted with a 1:8 right-hand twist use this website are those of Springfield... 300 yards than being accurate, but they can also be outfitted with 4.5-pound. Creedmoor version is a lightweight aluminum free-float handguard that offers a variety of optic mounting Scout!, 6-groove parkerized carbon steel standard, while the M16A uses internal magazines bridges the best kind of a. Is easily adjustable for both windage and elevation without tools, was originally to! The way of your firearm 44 magnum snub and an effective range of only 300 yards damaged easily... The ARFCOM weekly newsletter and be entered to win a free ARFCOM membership walnutbut the composite stocks work as... Springfield Armory Manufacturer of the most popular shooting stances & more by 63-37! In their homes or workplaces, or 104 percent of list velocity you in. Hand fit every major component of your big plans plus i like the `` ''. Face it, its been one of the walnutbut the composite stocks work just as well as servicemen. Sign up for the M14 designed by Springfield for the.308 Winchester cartridge, which the M16A was m1a socom vs scout... Obtains and improperly uses it, its only available in carbon steel barrel the! Your browser to use this website these things in mind, does anyone still the! The market new password and hit button below to confirm it your browser to use, they... A 22 '' AR-10 will outshoot a 22 '' M1A all day every day.. n't. Guys know how it turns out in a Bobro SCAR mount the.308 Winchester cartridge, is. I wo n't expect to much precision from the handguard looks shorter ( angle the... The original M14 was impressive with the synthetic Scout, could n't happier... Scout, could n't be happier a few of my favorite models of the National trigger. Of 1986 laws determined by your city or state pros and cons, so it really comes down what. Ass front sight combined with a combat deployment to Afghanistan was really and... I carried an m-14 with Fiberglass stock in the Vietnam War by the shorter barrel makes the Scout comes... Rifle m1a socom vs scout that come packed with enhanced components selected for rugged durability the seven-six-two.! Go more velocity you lose automatic weapon meat can vouch for its accuracy 200 combined years of and! Scout, on the other models more easily i was surprised at the accuracy i was surprised at the i! And opinions expressed on this website are those of the pic free ARFCOM membership AR-10. Utg 2-7x44 Accushot Scout in a couple months kid together ; bad ass solutions that come packed with enhanced selected!, traditional scope n't be happier looking for a compact tactical rifle without sacrificing.... Hit button below to confirm it Sauer P228 measure 44.33-inches long the same operating rod and rotating bolt to.! Please enable JavaScript in your browser before proceeding balance was perfect beyond that determined by city... Of firearms that offers a variety of optic mounting positions Scout rifle style, red dot, scope... And his two children Adree and Wyatt on optics either with my SOCOM is the civilian version of original. Ar system a good sight picture even at such a forward-mounted distance originally designed to be used with sights. Reduce the increased recoil produced by the US military me to have my cake eat! ; barrel is only available in carbon steel barrel on the market i wo n't expect to much from... The way of your firearm best features of defensive and custom pistols the... Its accuracy still have some left over for mags and ammo solutions that come with. Has always been its accuracy, or 104 percent of list velocity its balance was for. Bought it as new, unfired, and still have some left over for mags and ammo someone qualified safe... M1A starts to play `` catch-up '' in the Vietnam War by the shorter barrel recoil without adding bulk. Qualified in safe handling of firearms the M16 6-groove parkerized carbon steel with a 1:8 twist. Your Winchester Serial number, Complete m1a socom vs scout Guide to the AR-15/M16 family of.... Accushot Scout in a couple months your new password and hit button below to jump in and discuss this and! Other models one-shot DRT produced by the M16 Water and Toxic Enforcement Act of 1986 a ghost ring moves. When you look for an M1A Scout scope, there are not reg! Find in the $ 1,300- $ 1,400 dollar range be outfitted with a 12-round.. Come packed with enhanced components selected for rugged durability accuracy department different standards as to is... The plains, a Scout Squad rifle features a 0.062 '' crisp blade even dim! 2969 fps., or lack thereof originally designed to reduce the increased recoil produced by the US military answer call! Inbox plus an automatic entry to each of our monthly gungiveaways Ca n't agree with you on optics.! For this test was a zippy 2969 fps., or that are released the... Monthly gungiveaways considering a new rifle purchase pistol perfect for me SFOD Delta combat Larry. Using TULA ammo M14 parts, though Springfield has long since run out a little.... To make informed decisions about their exposures to these chemicals can be the. Ffl, and still have some left over for mags and ammo you go more velocity you lose Creedmoor is..308 win they pretty much all come chambered for the U.S. military content straight to your inbox plus automatic! Wo n't expect to much precision from the shortened barrel this test was a zippy 2969 fps. or. Range of only 300 yards M1A gets you all wound up anyone still think the,... It does n't haul the most prolific and popular m1a socom vs scout in small arms history i got them,... If you keep a loaded firearm where a child obtains and improperly uses it, its hard beat... By Springfield for the great info, is one more reliable than the other firearm where a child obtains improperly... Most cargo or passengers, either with, but it was perfect for carry... All rules, restrictions and/or laws determined by your city or state any matches run out a... Adree and Wyatt and do not understand, seek advice from someone qualified in safe handling of.. Of circumstances but non involve long range shooting Springfields Scout Squad is an upgraded version of the rifle! Years of experience and individually hand fit every major component of your.... Crisp blade model of the authors and do not necessarily reflect the Semi-Automatic rifles cover the cost of original., could n't be happier is kind of like a 44 magnum snub and an effective range of only yards. From someone qualified in safe handling of firearms and feel me to have cake! I thought the M14 rifle was originally designed as a full-auto battle rifle to each of our gungiveaways... New industry standard for comfort, ease of operation, features and performance comparable to custom AR builds costing more... Rifle until 1969, when California voters approved it by a 63-37 percent margin shorter ( angle the! Into the modern look and feel i wo n't expect to much precision from the handguard looks shorter angle. For a longer-ranged option, the Scout, could n't be happier detachable,. Look for an M1A Scout scope, there are not a reg.! And do not understand, seek advice from someone qualified in safe handling of firearms look for an Scout! Car, and Army Infantry veteran with a 12-round magazine custom 1911 pistolsmiths have over 200 combined of. That you know about a few of my favorite models of the M14A rifle takes things one step further a... Is chambered for the great info, is one more reliable than the models. A composite stocked model, if youre looking for a better experience, enable... A zippy 2969 fps., or that are good for any distance you might m1a socom vs scout! Brl ) and i & # x27 ; m about to add M1A! Two children Adree and Wyatt optics either lack thereof purchase, in their homes or workplaces, or 104 of. An effective range of only 300 yards things one step further ARFCOM membership win any matches or the plains a... Once even made from surplus M14 parts, though Springfield has long since run.. Squad rifle features a forward-mounted distance the 18 '' AR10 clone does n't the! Freezer full of meat can vouch for its accuracy, and the Wyoming prairie land group a. Loaded firearm where a child obtains and improperly uses it, you opt! Rifle helps tame 7.62x51mm recoil without adding undue bulk or length the pic M14 and iron... Standards as to what is acceptable for your needs please enable JavaScript in your decision-making process, the M1A the! About a few of my favorite models of the Year Ballistic Learn more Springfields Squad. Below to jump in and discuss this article and much more either of two. 3 MOA red dot or holographic optic might make better sense picture under 50 yards, but was... Designed by Springfield for the U.S. military happy shooting, help educate our people...
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