66:24 says "The THEY SHALL GO FORTH". And Jude used the PRESENT TENSE judgement suffered by them as an example of something that would take place in the future. Because the Hinnom and Kidron Valleys are located on the southeast side of Jerusalem, the prevailing winds carry the winds away from the city. This was a place where the fires were kept burning all the timenight and day. Gehenna is the Greek version of the biblical word Gehinnom or Gei Hinnom (the valley of Hinnom Joshua 15:8). There was a fire there, burning constantly to consume the trash. Paul turned a Christian over to satan for the DESTRUCTION OF THE FLESH. If you don't like it, go and take something else but don't put your thoughts into Christ's mouth. It means that there is no coming back from this destruction. Connection between Greek word used for "Hell," and garbage dumb. He got into trouble with a lot of people over many things, but one area of his teaching was never assailed by any church council and that was his teaching on universal salvation. If this is supposed to be a literal story about the suffering of an eternal "hell", there would be no need to explain the gulf as being necessary to prevent people from going from Abraham's bosom to the other side where there is torment. The picture of the valley itself proves that it gas been filled in with a huge amount of fill. And as you know from experience, a dump without flies is a dump without garbage. [2] The valley is also known by the name Gehinnom ( G-Hnnm, lit. Located at the midpoint of the Lower Planes, it was a plane of evil balanced between Law and Chaos. Ive always thought that this was an established fact. There are a lot of things we need to be saved from at this point, but there will come a point when there will be nothing we need to be saved from. Are there going to be new moons and sabbaths in eternity? You simply over-reading certain passages. The second results in being in danger of the council, and the third results in danger of the fire of Gehenna. Even in Rome, many did not believe that punishment was eternal, and this is according to the champion of that doctrine, Augustine. This view is frequently debated, as there exists little evidence to confirm the existence of. Hell, detail in Pieter Bruegel the Elder's Dull Griet, 1561 . Yes, wonderful promise. Are there going to be new moons and sabbaths in eternity? I can use the common meaning of words in scripture. But "the flesh" has nothing to dod with worms and fire. Why would anyone, especially people who are redeemed and survive the coming of the Lord to judge all flesh (v.16) want to go out to look at corpses full of worms and burning? Of course you must look towards anti-Origenists to find out about that, not admirers of the man who swept his errors (with which they didn't agree) under the carpet like Eusebius or Rufinus. 23 From one New Moon to another and from one Sabbath to another, all mankind will come and bow down before me, says the LORD. Is that decree retroactive?". That's why Jerome translated it aeternam in Latin as well, because he knew what was implied by the Greek. The reason they didn't die out was because there was a constant supply of refuge being fed them. There is no corresponding situation for punishment having it's opposite destroyed thus allowing it to continue outside of time. It doesnt take rocket science to realize that after King Josiah destroyed the Baal temple it would be covered over and used for the city trash. Check out Matt 25:46. Not unlike the fire of 2 Thes. Calling God "The God of the ages" (aions) is stating a fact, God is God over the ages. It smoldered there beneath the surface, incinerating the rotting, smelly garbage. (v.23). These words can be used to describe something that is eternal, but this meaning has to be derived from the object they are used in conjunction with. Neovia manufactures and distributes animal nutrition products including premixes, additives, pet food and ingredients. Of hhe three valleys below Jerusalem, Hinnom lies dead center below the Old City and temple. Arius was, Nestorius was, Eutyches was. As for the lost, per words of Jesus and apostles, they will die (wages of sin)/be destroyed/perish. Click the card to flip Certainly they produced less waste than a modern city. PDF The moth does die. Will those who survive not be able to believe that they are really safe until they go out and look at the corpses of those who persecuted them and cast them out? It does not need to be quenched. Those who WOULD. TATS THE TRUE TRANSLATION THEIR WORM WILL NOT DIE THAT IS WHY THE FIRE WONT BE QUENCHED THEY ARE IN ETERNAL TORMENT.THE NIV IS NOT LITERAL THEY CHANGE WORDS TO THE WORMS THAT EAT THEM WON'T DIE WERE DOES IT SAY THAT IT DOESNT, Hinnom Walley was a dump in Jesus days and even today, in modern times, we have waste treatment technology and everything in Jerusalem has changed to a tourist attraction and no one already wants the landfill there, but some people are still used to throwing their waste there.https://www.google.com/maps/@31.7686626,35.2333475,3a,56.6y,328.92h,103.63t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1szm6A_bN1OCNC7ikOFCcVTw!2e0!7i13312!8i6656, Your email address will not be published. How does this work? Neither says anything about eternal punishment being only temporary. In the case of life age-during, that life is with God, who is eternal. Spare us your pseudo-physics which can teach us nothing about the afterlife in the New Jerusalem. Your idea about "universal salvation" among church fathers is wrongheaded. "The three parables you mention also do not say how long the consequences for failure last or whether there is anything else to take place afterward.". "WHEN your sisters, Sodom and her daughters, return to their former state, and Samaria and her daughters return to their former state, then you and your daughters will return to your former state. Anything thrown into this dump would be completely destroyed, turned into ashes. That part of the verse could be left off and the last part of the verse would be sufficient to finish answering why the rich man's request could not be granted. He just told his audience that if there is part of your body that causes you to stumble, cut it off. Fears becalmed. One is that the age-during is modified by what it refers to. Did Isaiah lie? I am talking about the entire early Church, which did not adhere to your universal salvation theology. "You have paid for your lewdness and your abominations, says the Lord. If it were "eternal pruning" and this doesn't make sense to you, your problem is with Christ. And of course, the worm did not die there, meaning that there were always new maggots going through their life-cycles, feeding on the trash. That the valley was just outside the city of Jerusalem made it an appropriate symbol for those excluded from divine blessing. This is getting silly! The only exception was the 5th Ecumenical Council (around 550), which posthumously condemned not just (some or all) teachings of Theodorus and of Origen but condemned them personally. What church are you talking about? Saying "God is eternal" is chickening out. Some scholars claim Gehenna later became a " garbage dump ," where refuse was subsequently burned. Resident,Physics has proven that if you take ANYTHING, like time or space and divide it smaller or multiply it bigger, at some point everything LOSES LOCALITY. 20The Law came in so that the transgression would increase; but where sin increased,grace abounded all the more, 21 so that, as sin reigned in death, even so grace would reign through righteousness to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord. Then he quotes Peter Head, G. R. Beasley-Murray, and Lloyd Bailey in tracing the origin of this notion to Rabbi David Kimchi in AD 1200. James A. Montgomery observes this medieval commentator's logic, but does not accept it. What the text clearly says is that Sodom serves as an example linked to those suffering in eternal fire. My time, unfortunately, is limited too. The Hebrew word is used in relation to people. Gender and justice in the worshipping communities of the Christian Churches, Tay JoAnne Schield Odor. But that statement says nothing about God no longer being God after the ages. It is never connected to any words denoting the length of time it is to be inflicted. It traveled through the city gate and emptied into a nearby valley. The parables all imply that the judgement is final, because "the door was locked" it is an unfounded assumption on your part that it would be opened again. But of course, some know-it-all flippig through pages will know it better! Isaiah had already envisioned Topheth as the fiery destiny of an enemy of God. New garbage was piled on top of the old decaying garbage: rotting fish, slimy vegetation, decaying human refuse of every imaginable sort. (v.23), "Who is it that is going to go out of the city and look at the worm-eaten, burning bodies?". Gehenna Gehenna is the plane of suspicion and greed. And does the father disinherit the son after the latter has conquered and toiled for him. Common mistake to read this as etetnal "judging" since most etetnal tormenters believe in inherent immortality if the soul. Obviously, this fire is not still burning today, so this fire had an "age to come" or better put a "forever result" quality to it vs. a duration quality to it. As with the legend about the rope around the high priests ankle, this popular myth seems to have originated in Jewish circles in the Middle Ages. eitchen midden, kitchen midden, midden - (archeology) a mound of domestic refuse containing shells and animal bones marking the site of a prehistoric settlement. Gehenna A sewer channel commonly ran under the streets of ancient cities. There is no mention in the tons upon tons of writings we have from Church Fathers, Christian and Jewish writers, or even secular writers for that matter. Isaiah 66:15-16 makes it pretty clear when the context of the rest of the chapter takes place. 9:28 or was that Is. "Worms" in Isaiah 66:24 is towlah, and Gesenius notes that this word is especially used to denote worms that feed on FLESH, although it is also used to talk about worms in bread and the worm that killed Jonah's shade plant. The first results in being in danger of the "judgement". Eventually, part of Gei Ben Hinnom became a dump, with constant day and night burning of trash fires emitting a sulfurous stench. activies, not statements of faith). Jude is not using Sodom and Gommorah as examples of those who WILL be punished, the "suffering of eternal fire" in that verse is in the PRESENT TENSE. The books of Kings and Chronicles tell us that a wealthy family named "Hinnom" owned a garden near Jerusalem which first King Ahaz, and then even more audaciously, King Manasseh turned into a place for burning children as a sacrifice to the god Molech. 2:8 for additional contextual support. So you call someone "empty-headed" and get to face the Sanhedrin or similar council, but call someone "impious fool" and you get eternal worms and fire in Gehenna? By Patrick Hunt - Gehenna is an old Hebrew toponym (place name) that began as a literal, physical location - the Valley of Hinnom - and gradually transformed into a metaphor for hell through various processes including religious defilement. For some reason this comment got swallowed up yesterday: "You are right about Origen's apocatastasis getting him in trouble. And then "the age" is either eternal both times or it is temporal. If they contradict e.o., they contradict e.o. My last post was too long so here's the rest . It is a widespread misconception by twisting around this or that word in the bible, you suddenly can change the content of the Christian faith. The flies laid eggs on the surface of the dump. This article is more additional proof against the doctrine of eternal torment. ), "And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been fixed, in order that those who would pass from here to you may not be able, and none may cross from there to us.". Diana Group Profile and History . Living I think what you heard was in reference to the Kidron Valley, just below the Temple Mount on the eastern side. I like how you responded to the (?I guess they are unbelievers) in the comments. If all men could be saved, it would be great, but we are long past this (let alone all creatures). He is not being literal here", "He is speaking about cutting off or getting rid of something of the carnal man.". "Gehenna" was a very concrete location in Jesus' time. It doesn't matter what we think! His idea of apokatastasis was actually the main theological idea that was criticized, his teaching that in the end even Satan would be saved. The Gray Waste of Hades, also known as the Gray Waste, was an Outer Plane in the Great Wheel cosmology model, home of the daemons. A shorter one, posted at Grace to You: Is Hell Really Endless? All who accept it. It is retributive and vindictive. I had no idea that the Old Testament provides ample evidence for why the New Testament associates Gehenna with the abode of the damned. Rome? Gehenna, also called Gehinnom, abode of the damned in the afterlife in Jewish and Christian eschatology (the doctrine of last things). Maggots and worms crawled through the waste, and the smoke smelled strong and sickening ( Isaiah 30:33 ). Residents sometimes called it the "valley of the sewer" or "the valley of the pagans." By Jesus' time, the Greek translation of Hinnom Valley, gehenna, became a synonym for hell. the creed), negative condemnations ("Whosover says . Jesus gives a simple vivid example, they will be like chaff thrown in a flame. In times of war, decaying human flesh mingled with the rotting garbageimagine the vile vision. The repeated tradition that the valley of Hinnom was a garbage dump with fires that never ceased burning is in question. It is translated "hell" every time. The common view today is that Gehenna was the garbage dump of Jerusalem. Mark 9:47 / Jeremiah 32:35. Jesus actually talked of kolasis aionian temporary correction/discipline. Rate: Ohio Serpent Mound in the News Gregory Nazianzen and Gregory of Nyssa, both staunch universalists, recognized by the eastern and western churchs as 'saints', played prominent roles at the council of Nicea. Theres also no archeological evidence of children sacrificed there or of the Baal Temple. The gate leading to it was called the dung gate, which meant trash as well as animal excrement. "if there is part of your body that causes you to stumble, cut it off. The rest of the world will not "suffers unimaginable torment for eternity" the world will be with God, whose judgement is just, even in regard to the damned. Gehenna was a burning trash dump outside Jerusalem. I confused the council of Nicea with the Nicene Creed that came out of the council at Constantinople later on. He must be alive. Isaiah 30:33 (HCSB) Indeed! Ive listened to many sermons and conference talks over the years which have included in them a curious factoid, namely that Gehenna was not only a reference to the Valley of Hinnon, but that it was also a perpetually burning trash dump. James A. Montgomery observes this medieval commentators logic, but does not accept it. Animal nutrition products including premixes, additives, pet food and ingredients first results in in! It, GO and take something else but do n't put your thoughts into Christ 's mouth coming back this!, lit is wrongheaded the Old Testament provides ample evidence for why the new.. 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Fire there, burning constantly to consume the trash neither says anything about eternal punishment being only temporary the Mount..., and the third results in danger of the Christian Churches, Tay JoAnne Schield Odor the length time.
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